Hello readers! Did you notice the byline at the top of the page? (Don’t worry, it’s still me, not my brother taking over the read or anything. I don’t even have a brother!) I’ve changed my name! Think of it like when your favorite soda brand does a redesign; new look, same great content!
Here’s hoping, anyway.
Today, in Part 12 of Reading The Wheel of Time, I’d like us to cast our minds back to the terrible dreams that have been afflicting our three young heroes on their journey towards a hopeful reunion in Caemlyn. Perrin, Rand, and Mat have all suffered from dreams of Ba’alzamon since those terrible visions of dead rats back in the Stag and Lion. (Although since we have yet to get any story from Mat’s point of view, we don’t have quite the same detail to analyze from him that we have for Perrin and Rand.) In this post, am going to take a deeper look into the three big dreams that have happened since I did the initial dream analysis in Week 4: Perrin’s dream in the Tuatha’an camp, Rand’s dream about the recently deceased Gode, and Rand’s dreams in the back of Bunt’s cart.
Back in Chapter 27 and struggling with his deepening knowledge of and connection with the wolves, Perrin suffered from only the regular sorts of nightmares as he, Egwene, and Elyas traveled with the Tuatha’an. One night he dreams he is in the home of the Luhhans, sitting at the kitchen table while Mistress Luhhan is cooking. Perrin is sharpening his axe, knowing that he will need it soon. A wolf enters the room from somewhere else in the house, curling up between Perrin and the door.
Suddenly the wolf rises, growling, and Ba’alzamon enters from outside, and his eyes are flames. “Is this what you have to protect you?” he asks Perrin. “Well, I have faced this before. Many times before.” With a crook of his finger he sets the wolf on fire, and Perrin can smell the burning hair and flesh as he tries to put the fire out and the wolf turns to greasy soot under his hands. Ba’alzamon follows him across the kitchen, backing him up against the wall and tells Perrin that he cannot hide, that “[i]f you are the one, you are mine.” He throws out his hand and a raven flies out of it and into Perrin’s face, stabbing him in the left eye with its beak.
Perrin awakes safe and unhurt, but the memory of the injury is fresh in his mind, and in the mind of the wolves who are crying out in his, and Elyas’s head, Fire, Pain, Kill. With that communication, Elyas knows that is it time for them to leave the Traveling People and that something dangerous is coming.
So, as far as I can tell, there are three layers to this dream. One appears to be an ordinary one, in which Perrin dreams of his home, but also of feelings of danger, hence the axe where there normally wouldn’t be one. Throughout the action with Ba’alzamon and the wolf, Mistress Lehhan continues cooking as though none of it is happening, which makes me think that is the regular dream of Perrin’s imagination, and that the wolf and Ba’alzamon are intruders into it. Perrin interacts with them, but the rest of the dream continues on as normal.
The wolf, of course, is there to protect Perrin. Later in the chapter, as Perrin tries to comprehend the horror of his dream, he is stunned that that the wolves do not seem to have made them safe, as he previously believed. The wolves reply in Perrin’s mind that the connection between them is not complete, and won’t be until Perrin stops struggling and accepts it. But Ba’alzamon didn’t seem too fazed by the wolf in Perrin’s mind, acceptance or not, which makes me wonder how much even the wolves could do against him even if the connection were at full strength. Perhaps the other times Ba’alzamon contended with wolf brothers (and sisters? I hope there are wolf sisters) he also got to them before the connection could be completed? If a full connection with the wolves could protect Perrin from Ba’alzamon’s intrusion into his dreams, that would be a very valuable thing indeed.
Meanwhile, Rand’s dream in Chapter 33 takes place in part of the flashback confusion, but it’s right after they have escaped The Dancing Cartman and are sleeping huddled under some bushes in the storm. Rand dreams he is back in the town again, but this time it is empty of life. He returns to the inn, where he finds what appears to be the animated corpse of Gode, recognizable only from his clothes, his skin and hair burnt and oozing, his lips and eyelids gone. Ba’alzamon is there too, and he tells Rand that the dead Gode deserves reward for finding Rand. He tells Rand that he cannot hide, that “what protects [him] also makes [him] vulnerable.” He tries to persuade Rand to come to him willingly, to surrender to his fate rather than be painfully dragged to it, but Ba’alzamon tells him that Rand will be his even if he is killed. “Alive or dead, youngling, you are mine. The grave belongs to me. Easier dead, but better alive.”
Ba’alzamon gives Gode his “reward,” the marred body crumbling into dust, and then Ba’alzamon raises his fist to Rand. As he did with Perrin, he tells Rand “I mark you mine,” and and a ball of flame shoots from his hand and hits Rand in the face, waking him with the pain of it. His skin still feels tender in the real world, and he hears Matt sobbing with what appears to be the same or a similar nightmare, crying out “He took my eyes!”
This dream might be my favorite dream to date. The action is really tight, unlike the earlier dreams which involve a lot of wandering in corridors and mazes. Not that wandering is a bad thing! But there’s something about a quick, perfectly executed scene like this that I think shows a writer’s skill really well and can feel more immersive somehow to me as a reader. There are some really good lines in here, too; like when Rand thinks that perhaps he’s not afraid of Gode because he knows he’s dreaming, and then he hears Ba’alzamon.
Rand turned, and discovered he could be afraid, even knowing it was a dream.
So. Good. I also really liked the description of Gode getting his “reward.” I kept thinking of the Nazis getting dissolved in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark; and that moment when Belloq cries “It’s beautiful” before the face rising from the open ark turns into a terrifying skull. The human Darkfriends we have met so far (not counting in the prologue) seem to be seduced by petty ideas of wealth or power while not really understanding the power they are aligning themselves with; they probably all will receive a similar reward from the Dark One, for whom they are merely tools in his quest to destroy everything. One wonders how so many people could not feel the horror that seems to come off of Ba’alamon in waves, though.
Unlike Perrin’s dream earlier, this dream seems more in keeping with the earlier Ba’alzamon dreams Rand and the boys have had; as though the dreamscape itself is created by Ba’alzamon so that he can draw Rand into it. I wonder if knowing where Rand is makes it easier to target him. I also wonder what effect Rand being the Dragon Reborn has on the vividness of his dreams, and what control he has in the situation. Rand’s choice to speak and deny Ba’alzamon, to say that he will never belong to the Dark One, feels very significant, and I suspect that Ba’alzamon really needs the boys (or at least, whichever is the “the one”) to give over to him. No doubt that will give him control over the person, as it does over the Darkfriends who serve him. In Rand’s first dream back in Baerlon, Ba’alzamon tried to get him to drink from a goblet, and was visibly disappointed when Rand refrained. Now he urges the boys to surrender, to choose to serve him over serving Tar Valon and the Amyrlin Seat. I imagine if any of them were to surrender for even a moment, to take what seems an easier path than resistance, his power over them would be established.
We can only surmise what Matt dreamed, but Rand certainly seems to think it was similar, and “he took my eyes” sounds like Perrin’s eye-stabbing raven, at any rate. Eyes plural, in this case, but it seems to track. I also wonder if the corruption of the dagger has any effect on Mat’s dreams, or his vulnerability to Ba’alzamon. Stay strong, Matrim!
Finally, there is the big signal fire here of Rand’s use of the One Power to summon the lightning and Ba’alzamon’s comment of “What protects you makes you vulnerable.” Rand still isn’t aware that he has channeled, but by doing it he has marked himself. I noticed that there was no “Are you the one” or “if you are the one” from Ba’alzamon this time. He seems more sure of himself, less anxious to get details. Even his taunts are steadier.
In the back of Bunt’s wagon, Rand has a dream that seems very similar to his feverish visions while he was ill in the stables. Although we can’t really be sure of anything, it does seem as though those visions really were just ordinary fever dreams, with Rand’s worst fears coming to light, and so these seem to, except for the bit with Thom. In both the fever and the cart dreams, he sees his friends dead or being actively hurt by dark agents–with an emphasis on Egwene as the person he’s most afraid for. But as Bunt’s dissertation about Queen Morgase floats into his dreams, he imagines it is Thom reciting, and he says something that I am quite certain didn’t come first from Bunt’s lips: “The Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.”
Also significant? When Rand sees Egwene in the dream, he shouts “It’s me you want, not her!” Of course, this could just be a standard reaction based on wanting to protect Egwene, but I wonder if some part of Rand, some deep unconscious part, hasn’t realized who he is and responds in the dream world in a way his conscious mind can’t yet. His dreams have a vivid flavor to them, and they are often at least partly lucid–he recognizes the dream, he can even control it sometimes, as he did in the maze dream of Chapter 24. This, I think, suggests a power in him that is perhaps greater than that we’ve seen from Perrin or suspected in Mat.
Thematically, I expect a dreamworld show-down at some point before the end of this book in which Rand does more than stand his ground against Ba’alzamon, but actually turns the tables, perhaps forcing the Dark One from his head. The realization of his identity is coming, at any rate, and I will be interested to see how he engages with it. We have seen Perrin’s struggle with his own powers, Egwene’s eagerness for hers, and we have watched Mat be slowly overcome by a power from outside himself. How will Rand al’Thor stack up in comparison to his friends? And of course this dream of Rand’s also has the raven-pecking-out-your-eye thing for the “mark you mine” bit. Is it more than a dramatic threat? Ba’alzamon can’t find them through their dreams or figure out who they are, he can’t read their minds or anything. But can he leave a mark on them? On their souls?
As with my usual hypotheses-heavy posts, I can’t help wondering how many clues I’ve missed. More than one commenter has pointed out how seamlessly Jordan drops bits of information and set up, be it world-building or plot-based, into the story almost without the reader noticing, and I have to say it’s really impressive. When I was going back over things this week I realized that I had completely forgotten that Ba’alzamon brought up Artur Hawkwing and took credit for all the horrible things that the King did, like vilifying the Aes Sedai and turning them away even when they were the only people who could save his life. That was in Rand’s first dream of him, around 200 pages before Elyas, Perrin, and Egwene are sitting around the remains of that statue in the stedding. And it sure puts a different spin on Elyas’s account of Hawkwing’s life and death for me; especially the bit “He hated Aes Sedai as much as he hated the Dark One.” It speaks again to the theme of distrust that has been continuously built throughout the story, and the way that the Dark One sows it everywhere he can.
For those of you who know the books well, I hope this wasn’t too slow a week for reading. I am interested to know how people feel about the dream sequences and how they set up the plot going forward, and you know, feel free to discuss amongst yourselves in whited-out comments if you have spoiler-y observations or just want to giggle about my lack of knowledge. Lots more action in the upcoming chapters, and some Nynaeve POV too, hurray! We’ll be going on to cover Chapters 37 and 38, and the week after we’ll get to Rand and his ridiculous adventures trying to see Logain. Thanks for reading, and I will see you all down below!
Sylas K Barrett cannot lucid dream. But the other night he had a very long dream in which he was answering a lot of questions from his partner about the characters and plot details from The Silmarillion. The same thing is probably going to happen with The Wheel of Time, sooner or later.
You’ve noticed a lot of the hints and foreshadowing. Your mention of Thom’s bit of recitation about the Dragon in particular will take a long time to pay off, but pay off it will, in spades. Hopefully that’s not too much of a spoiler.
Sylas – I always wonder about the nature of the protection offered by channeling the One Power. Moiraine has referred to it during the course of the book so far. Is that what Ba’alzamon is saying to Rand – you get some protection from channeling (assuming that is what he is doing) but it also helps me find you? If Rand is being protected so far, we haven’t seen evidence of much protection.
Re Mat, remember he was blinded earlier in the trip to Camelyn, so that “he took my eyes” may reference back to that.
Re “[t]he Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon,” that is a seemingly profound statement about which we haven’t yet been given enough information to know what it can mean. Stay tuned.
Oh you want to discuss Dreams in Randland… oh yeah I’m not touching that one, I’ll let someone who is not prone to accidental spoilers handle that subject.
But I do want to say that I have really enjoyed your speculations posts, you do an excellent job with them.
Spoiler // Oh he wants to see a Dream World Show-Down? lol //
I have been following this read since the beginning and I’m loving every post! I haven’t commented yet because I’ve read this series so many times and it’s been a while – I’m afraid of giving something away. But I wanted to say how much I enjoy witnessing you experience it all for the first time.
Lucid dreaming turns out to be a very big thing in Randland.
Hiya Sylas! The Wheel of Time is probably my favorite fantasy series and I’m really excited to get on the ground floor (relatively speaking) of this read through.
As for the topic on hand I’ve always loved the use of dreams in WOT and how Jordan portrays them. I remember when I tried to keep a dream journal my biggest struggle (besides waking my brain up enough to actually want to write things down) was to try and make my dreams fit some kind of narrative. Which is really hard to do because dreams rarely make any actual sense and with few exceptions I’m likely to forget them altogether after half an hour. So you can take the dreams that involve Ba’alzamon, which still have that dream like quality but also have a very clear beginning,middle and end with a conversation occurring throughout and the boys ability to clearly remember what happened, and compare them to Rands fever dream which lines up more with how most people experience dreams as our subconscious throws a whole lot of images into our brain as it works to sort through information. Making this comparison is another clue to the reader on how exactly Ba’alzamon is communicating with our heroes.
The coolest aspect of the three dreams is having Ba’alzamon kill the protective wolf in Perrin’s dream and how that was instantly known among all the “live” wolves around Perrin. Lots of questions to be answered regarding what precisely are the connections between and among Perrin, live wolves and dream wolves – but we don’t know at this point in the story.
This is so much fun. Having began the series in the 90’s and typically rereading with the release of each subsequent book, I have at this point almost no frame of reference for what it would be like to read each book without the context of the entire series. I’m glad you exist to do this.
Dreams in the Wheel of Time are such simple things….
In paragraph 5 (counting the one sentence paragraph as a paragraph) it says: “With a crook of his finger he sets the wolf on fire, and Rand can smell the burning hair and flesh as he tries to put the fire…” Rand should be Perrin, as this is Perrin’s dream. Feel free to delete this comment on correction.
I suspect some people would mistake the horror for power.
Although I love this book, I can’t wait for you to get to the next few books where we leave the Tolkienisms behind us and get to see Jordan’s world open up to other cultures and we get some more POVs.
But of course you have to learn how the world works like all the rest of us did. That “learning curve” is best illustrated in Moiraine’s answer to Egwene while studying Saidar a few chapters back:
“Ask,” Moiraine was saying, “and if I can tell you now I will. Understand, there is much for which you are not yet ready, things you cannot learn until you have learned other things which require still others to be learned before them. But ask what you will.”
A few Spoiler-y comments and giggles about things in the post, although I’ll white out the quotes from the post and leave (most of) my own responses “normal text colour”. That way I can tease you with things you are yet to find out about, without you being able to find out what those things are for the moment, which is loads of fun.
Astute observation.
Yes. Yes it does. //Dreamshards only have a limited area of effect, after all.//
If I remember how these things work correctly, then none at all.
If he’d learn the relevant facts, then: for all intents and purposes //unlimited//. Although…. since I just remembered this is //a Dreamshard, and not Tel’Aran’Rhiod, maybe not so much. Still, some control is there if I recall correctly.// Unfortunately, he never quite does quite learn those facts as I recall.
I do have a question directly to you, @Silas, though. The phrase “The Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon” may or may not have significance for the rest of the series, but apart from that matter there are other things that can be said about it. One of the things I like most about your Reviews is how you draw parallels to other literary works. Jordan is known to draw from, and make reference to, a huge variety of sources — with the difference between “drawing from” and “making reference to” mainly being that one is relevant to the plot of the 14+Prologue The Wheel of Time books, while the other isn’t. That thing Rand mutters here has definite parallels to something from elsewhere in fiction. Care to take a gander at what that might be, exactly?
Oh, and a second question too: when, if ever, do you plan to read the “Ravens” prologue that came with the split-into-2 version of The Eye of the World? I recently read it, and it’s definitely worth the read.
@13 Jadis, I second your recommendation for Sylas to read the Ravens prologue next time we do a post like this one would be the perfect time.
With a crook of his finger he sets the wolf on fire, and Rand Perrin can smell the burning hair and flesh as he tries to put the fire out and the wolf turns to greasy soot under his hands
I have to echo the comments of others as to how much fun it is reading your speculations and hypotheses. Such as your focusing in on Ba’alzamon telling Rand how he whispered in Hawkwing’s ear. These hints and reveals from Jordan are like an onion. Many layers. It reminds me of how many times, as I kept reading, I found myself saying, “oh yeah, huh. Should’a caught that”
@10,15 – Fixed, thank you!
@jadis666. Are you being coy with Silas? Maybe Silas hasn’t read any Arthurian based books…. What I find interesting about it, is that Arthur could be the “dragon” of his age… And someone referenced Artur Hawkwing… while similar they don’t seem exactly the same…// maybe along the lines of if from worlds that reflect, but are not exactly the same…// It could also be, that with another spin or two of the wheel, another similar legend appears… a ta’veren king that changes the world. His sword Justice/Excalibur by his side….Jordan’s weaving (you know it!) of legend and history through these books is stunning… it is so rich, I have trouble reading other series… they feel like reading comic books without pictures…
“A dream to some. A nightmare to others!”
I always think of that when I read these scenes.
Congrats on the name change, Sylas! I like it, but I cannot help but associate it with Sylas Briarwood of Critical Role infamy. Do you work for Vecna, by any chance?
When I saw last week that this week was gonna be dream analysis, I think I expected something quite different from this, although I don’t consciously have any idea what that was? I’m finding this post difficult to come up with discussion, except as it relates to things that I know are revealed due to the benefit of having read the complete series. But that’s spoilery and doesn’t let us engage with you. Anyway, you continue to be quite sharp at picking up the details that *I* missed until my 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th re-reads, so great job, and cannot wait to see your take on the meating and reunions coming up soon.
Dream interpretation is a difficult undertaking. It’s hard to be sure of what a detail in a dream means, or even whether it means anything at all. It’s also unwise to believe everything one hears and sees when the Father of Lies is involved.
I agree that most darkfriends probably don’t fully understand what they’ve signed up for. At least not until it’s too late to back out. I also agree that one shouldn’t trust the Dark One to keep his promises – or any representative of the Shadow for that matter. I think however that most lowly darkfriends don’t get to meet Ba’alzamon in person. Again, not until it’s too late to back out.
Regarding Perrin’s dream: Maybe it’s a sign of Perrin’s partial protection that Ba’alzamon can’t pull him into a dream that Ba’alzamon himself has created, so he has to intrude on Perrin’s dream instead.
In connection to the pecking out of eyes, could it be relevant that Min saw an eye on a scale next to Mat?
It could be interesting to see how many of the commentators that:
– haven’t read the series earlier.
– have read parts of the series (and how long they got/are)
– have read the series (number of times through, when they started and how long since their last read-through)
I started reading when Lord of Chaos was published and read up to that book, I then re-read the series with each new release. I skipped the read-through for the release of “Towers of midnight” (time isues). The last time I read through the series was when “A memory of light” was released so its nice to do a new read-through since it’s been a couple of years.
Tomas – Re your survey – I read EOTW in 2007, plowed through the other books, and have re-read them multiple times (including the latest one this year). I was one of the first followers of Leigh Butler’s re-read and continued through with her re-read redux on this site.
I seem to be having trouble commenting. Let’s see what happens if I write a shorter comment — it posted! Now let’s see what happens when I edit it to include the longer text.
@19ridolf67 (#18):
I sometimes have trouble with ambiguities. Most cases I do fine, or even well at; but there are still cases where the meaning of someone’s words eludes my grasp. With that in mind, I need to ask: did you think I was referring to King Arthur himself in eluding to the parallels Jordan was drawing with that line about “being one with the Land”? Because I wasn’t referring to Arthur, actually. //I was referring to the Fisher King; who while associated with Arthurian Myth — to be appropriately specific though: he’s central to the story of the Holy Grail, and I’ve forgotten how intertwined vs. independent that story is to Arthur’s story (as in, whether there are versions outside of Arthurian Myth, and if so how many) — is definitely NOT Arthur.//
To answer your other question: I might have been coy with Silas, yes….. a bit; because being a bit coy with people is fun. But that was far from the primary purpose of asking. My main intent was to get Silas to contemplate what possible parallels might exist, because that would either a) add flavour to the story if it doesn’t come up again; or b) help interpret future events if is indeed relevant to later plot. We know whether (a) or (b) is the relevant one here, of course; but because Silas doesn’t I’m including them both.
I started reading in 2002 and haven’t stopped since! Am currently on my umpteenth reread (TGH) listening to the WoT spoilers podcast and reading this. .
One thing you pointed out I hadn’t noticed before but makes a lot of sense/Rand having more control in the dreams.. From memory LTT was a dream walker so he would have an advantage over the other two initially as it is within his “skill set” and even if he isnt actively aware of what he is doing, since world o dreams works on what you think and hold in your mind he would be stronger than the other two initially. Despite that Perrin ends up the undisputed king of T’A’R. / .
Just wanted to say that I love this read and you are incredibly astute in your observations. A lot of the stuff you’re picking up on are things people don’t catch until the reread. Very impressive.
//I don’t think LTT really was a Dreamer. Most channelers in the AoL seem to have some training with TAR, but he says somewhere that he tried many different things and didn’t really focus on one.//
Long time lurker here on Tor, first time poster. Sylas, I am really enjoying the read. The analysis of everything is enjoyable and your attention to detail is really great. As far as the dreams go, I did not notice the differences in dreams until a later read. I read through the first time when I was fourteen, so my adolescent brain probably did not help with attention to detail.
Re: 22 Thomas. As for your survey, I have read the series all the way through twice from EoTW to AMoL. Before that, I read Eye of the World in 2002 and finished my first read when CoT came out in 2003. I have read through each time a new book came out after that.
Re. The survey. First read EOTW in 1999
Done so many read throughs I’ve no idea. Last read through was prior to AMOL release. Which I read through twice. Had to step away from the series for a while as was quite emotionally drained by the series. Just started a reread (first one where I started with NS as normally left that till publication point or missed it out) me doing a rearead made me check out Dragonmount and here again low and behold a new read through has started.
@2 Of course we’ve seen it offer Rand protection. It just doesn’t offer him prevention of the need for protection.
I first read EOTW in 2006. I’ve done multiple (even I don’t know how many :) ) re-reads up to Crossroads of Twilight, then I finished the series when the last installments came out. Since then I only re-read the books I most like.
@22 Tomas I started reading WOT in 1999 I think, tPoD had been released and I remeber a seeing a big poster of the cover in a store and really wanted to know why someone was using a // upside down Ying Yang symbol as a flag // . I remember being very excited when I found out there were 7 books before that one and spent the next month plowing through the series non-stop. I have reread each book with each new release as well as just general rereads in between those. I have no idea how many times I have reread the series at this point but its certainly more than 10 times by now.
I started reading the books in early 1994, when The Fires of Heaven has just come out in hardcover.
Now that I’ve read the whole series, when I reread my reaction to Perrin’s dream wolf being killed like that is /pissed. We know the consequences when a wolf dies in a dream, and that is some petty evil on the part of Ba’alzamon just to make a point to Perrin./
A lot of very astute observations in this review but it would be too easy to accidentally add spoilers to further comments.
@22 Tomas. I started reading WoT as a teenager in the late 1990’s. 1996/1997 – I reckon given that the first copies of the books I read were all paperback in the country I was living in at the time (Not the USA). My copies of the first 5 novels are 2nd hand paper-back bought from a book market where I was living (a city that I always pictured as being similar to Caemlyn funnily enough). aPoD was the first book I had at release which I bought in hardback.
I have read each of the first 7 books countless times (lost count) but I will admit to only reading some of the later books no more than a couple of times each with the exception of repeat readings of particularly gripping scenes or events.
I have only read aMoL once as I found it difficult to regain my earlier enthusiasm after I got to the end. This is no reflection on Brandon Sanderson’s work. Mr Sanderson did a frankly remarkable job on a an almost Sisyphean task in closing out the series in the three books that he co-authored. It also introduced me to his own works including the wider Cosmere which has filled the void left by the end of the Wheel of Time.
Dude, you are soooooo good at this. Like impressively so. O_o
@22 Wow. Some long time fans on here for sure.
I am in that group as well. My brother brought home TEOTW when it was brand new on the shelf of the book store in 1990. He was so amazed by it that anytime he put it down, I stole it and started my own read! After that, I started from the beginning in anticipation of the release of each installment. I think I carried on with that practice until about the 9th book, then it just became too time consuming. I have read each one at least several times and now I just pick one of them at random and find a favourite part to reread whenever I have the urge.
I think Jordan has ruined me from being able to really get into any other series, because they just don’t hold up!!
I bought TEOTW in the fall of 1990 when it was on the new fantasy shelf. I bought each new book as soon as it was released, starting a reread in the months leading up to the new book every time. This became especially necessary as the gap between books steadily increased. So I have been reading and rereading for nearly 30 years.
Re: survey
I could be a year off, but I believe I started the summer of ’97. I was around 11 and reading anything with the word “dragon” in the title at the library. I found this massive, awesome looking book with a shining sword on the cover and quickly discovered it was the third book in a series. I started the EotW, and I’ve probably read it ten times since. The others, not so much. Anywhere between 2-7 times. I’ve only done one full re-read before, as I’m a slow reader and that’s quite an undertaking.
I’ve been here for all of the Tor re-read and read posts since shortly after Leigh started the first one though!
Like others, I’m enjoying the experience of you experiencing this series for the first time.
I started reading the series in 1995. After finishing LoC and waiting for ACoS to be published, I frequented (read: lurked) the rasfwrj newsgroup for the latest theories and thoughts on the series… what answers would ACoS provide? Will it take RJ 10 books to wrap up the series? Ah, good times. I’ve re-read and re-listened to the series multiple times, but not in the past several years. Again, I’m enjoying your thoughts and comments on the series as you read though it. Thanks!
Nice to see that many answered my question.
To new readers of the series.
Don’t feel any intimidation because of that people have read the series a lot earlier, it’s interesting to hear from you and get a take on the book(s) from people who are reading it for the first time.
I was thinking a lot about the dreams in WoT when // I saw Inception the first time //.
@22 RE: Commenter Survey
I began reading the The Wheel of Time shortly before The Fires of Heaven was released. I got my copies of the first four books from the reviewer for the Milwaukee Sentinal (Now the Journal-Sentinal.) I was 14 years old. I reread the books on every new release starting with the lead up to Lord of Chaos, which remains my favorite book in the series. Ironically, having to wait for it made it more important in my mind. After that, the waiting wasn’t so great! So, I did a complete reread for every book between Lord of Chaos and The Gathering Storm. I did not reread the series before the last two. I have reread the series once, from beginning to end, after my first read of A Memory of Light. And I’m currently listening to the audiobooks, and am in The Fires of Heaven.
When we finally got a computer, and the internet, in 1998, the second thing I did was hunt down Wheel of Time related sites on Altavista. The first thing I did was go to StarWars.com, but that’s irrelevant, lol. Within a day, I had discovered RASFWRJ, and the FAQ. I printed the FAQ out on the 4th day we had the internet. It was 80+ pages, and took 5 hours to print, lol. I still have that print out in a binder. I don’t have my high school diploma, but I have that thing, lol.
@22
I started reading WoT in 2001 while in college, on a good friend’s recommendation. Have read the whole series at least 3 times since. When I dive into something I dive deep, and on the first readthrough I found myself needing to create my own document to keep track of who everyone was and what factions they belonged to. It allowed me to figure things out on my own without risking being spoiled on the internet. And since then, naturally I read the WotFAQ many times, and read the Encyclopaedia-WoT many times. Anyway, since I read very closely, and relatively slowly, the whole series is not something I can do on a whim. A full read-through can take me upwards of a whole year.
I followed and lurked on Leigh’s Reread from the beginning, through the end of of the Reread Redux. And since I’m caught up, and dying for new things to read on my lunch breaks, I figured I would post and comment more from time to time when I have something worth sharing.
Speaking of which, I was hoping Sylas would talk about Rand’s very first dream, which was even earlier, in Chapter 9. Something about that always struck me even on my first readthrough. “… a mountain as black as the loss of all hope.”
@jardis666 (#24) Yes, I was speaking of Arthurian legend… Likely, I’ve created an Amalgam of all the stories of Arthur and it is murky… I read T.H White’s, Once and Future King in 1982, and haven’t looked at it since… I saw the film Excalibur, maybe in 1985. I saw “The Sword in the Stone” animated film by Disney, maybe in 2005 and recognized parts of T.H. White’s work in the film. I’m recalling an illustrated book from grade school too…. Now look what you’ve done. ;)
So I had to look up your reference… And that makes sense… But I don’t remember it in anything I read… It’s not new info…It was referenced in an evaluation of some works in 1909….Maybe Arthur gained the connection to the land in later works, to eliminate yet another tragic figure // the Fisher King // and keep the narrative on Arthur.
As to the Wheel of Time… I started reading it in 1992, maybe… I read the first three books as paperbacks and the fourth as hard bound… I loved the fourth book… it moves me… maybe because I came from a family of blacksmiths and have worked in front of a forge… And like so many others, I re-read the series with each addition… I have not re-read A Memory of Light… but I expect to later this year or next… I’ve just finished The Shadow Rising again… :)
@22 I started the series in the early 90s, when there were maybe 3 books out? and have read/reread most of the books numerous times, although I’ve only read the last 3 or 4 once.
I’ve just started a reread and am behind Sylas right now, and as @43 mentioned was going to point him back to chapter 9 for a dream to review!
//The Fisher King is from French grail stories that were later connected to the Arthurian legends.//
How does everyone remember when they started reading WoT? I don’t know exactly when I got the first 4 German (2 English) books. The next 3 books I bought at the same time in English (and I have the rest of the series in English, too. Some years ago I finally got TGH in English as the last missing in my English collection). The first I have in hardback is Winter’s Heart, so that’s probably when I started reading them as soon as they were published, but that was years after I started reading the series. I followed Leigh’s rereads from the beginning, but I started reading WoT long before we had internet.
I think the general attitude of the fan base who follow these online series dissections is: we want you to get through it, just to see how you react to knowing what we know, and to have the satisfaction of knowing you ran the gauntlet from start to finish (I hope you finish. Not everyone does…..) .
However, that being said, it certainly feels like you’re giving the series the full attention it deserves, and taking the time to relish and inspect the minor details. This bodes well for us, the ever scrutinizing, ever loyal peanut gallery. We certainly appreciate the increased level of depth in the discussion. It gives us more to compare with our own thoughts and experiences.
Nothing can take this series away from us, or mar it’s image in our mind. We will endure misrepresentations. We will endure horrible mischaracterizations through pop culture. And we will endure people who don’t understand us. Who do not have the patience for The Wheel Of Time, or have any respect for the mental, emotional and physical investment we have for it. We are one with the Wheel, and the Wheel is one with us.
Thank you for taking the time to construct these musings of yours. Keep up the good work. We look forward to many more to come….
@46 a lot of people I know work it out based on which book was out at the time.
Essentially was a book every year or every other year in the 90’s so with me it was 99 I started reading so Winter’s Heart was the first one I waited for the release (if only for a couple of months by the time I got there)
Re. The survey.
First read EotW in spring 1991 – did not finish, it felt like a LotR rip off. Very well written, but still a rip off.
Tried again reading EotW in spring of 1996 at the insistence of friends and co-workers. Truthfully had to force myself to read it, but I did finish it. It took me about a month to read. Then started on TGH, again at the insistence of friends and co-workers, which I was able to read over a weekend. Much easer read and I felt I could relate better to the story and characters. I then read TDR, TSR, TFoH and LoC over a week and was hooked on the Wheel of Time.
Reread all each time a new book came out; ACoS, TPoD, WH, but almost stopped after WH because it seamed to me that Jordan had lost his way. He knew how the series was to end but could not figure out how to get there. Both TPoD and WH gave me this imprecision. But stubborn fool I am, I would not give up on the series because I needed to know how it ended. Unlike the friend and co-workers who got me to read it in the first place.
I was heartbroken well reading KoD and hearing that Jordan had passed-on with then one last book to come.
Had mixed feeling when I heard that Sanderson was asked to complete the series, then pissed when hearing that it would not be done in one book but three.
Final in 2013 AMoL came out and I read the complete series.
Now about every two years I reread the series and find more in each book then the time before. This is a series meant to be reread regularly.
@RobMRobM (#2)- My assumption was that Ba’alzamon means it more literally than that: Rand’s ability to channel literally saved him because he drew the lightning down to kill Gode and bust a hole in the wall. And it also literally gave away his location to Ba’alzamon? But on the other hand, Moiraine often says that the presence of a chaneler is some protection in a way that sound more spiritual/astral so maybe there is something in the power itself that puts out goodness vibes, as it were?
Also re: #7, it makes sense to me that the wolves have an actual presence in Perrin’s mind which present symbolically as the image of the wolf. After all, they are communicating through some kind of telepathy and seem to be able to do so either as a group or as one individual to another. It is pretty cool, I agree!
@49:
I don’t think there’s any other way Sanderson could have done it. RJs process as I understand it was to start with a huge outline (but with very little detail) and then to write the story cutting stuff out as he went, moving plot points around, etc. The end product ended being much different than the initial story treatment.
But Brandon had the skeleton, and a few completed scenes, and he wasn’t about to massively cut out pieces of the skeleton, and even make massive wholesale changes, they way Jordan would have, because it wasn’t his story. So I think what ended up happening was he had to add stuff to make it all work, and to foreshadow stuff the was in RJs outline. Its completely different than the end product we would have had if RJ had lived, but I don’t think it was artificially inflated to sell more books. Its just the nature of the beast.
@50:
Well, Moiraine has said numerous times to this point that Fades can feel her channeling, or her wards, and the more powerful the channeling, the further away they can feel it. He could just mean that.
@19ridolf67 (#9) Is that sarcasm, I hear? ;-)
@noblehunter (#11) And perhaps how much people are willing to ignore their own instincts in order to pursue greed, I think. And then after a while of ignoring/suppressing that instinct, no doubt it fades. (Heheh, Fades.)
@jadis66 (#13) Maybe you mean Arthurian, with the prophesied return of Arthur to Albion in the hour of it’s greatest need? I was also thinking along the line of Buddhism and how the bodhisattva choose to remain attached to samsara to serve humanity. One question I have been pondering is how the physical land is shaped by the Wheel; I get how the pattern works on people’s lives but where do the building blocks come from?
@@@@@ Tyler (#20) I can see that association, especially with the shared B in our last names!
Yeah I imagined that it would not be the most discussion heavy week for the comments section, except if people wanted to do long spoiler conversations amongst themselves. I wanted to get another chance to theorize and look at the foreshadowing before things start to pick up again with the action. Can’t wait to get to next week!
@@@@@Rombobjorn: (#21) Oh yes, good point. Most people probably don’t meet him or have any contact with him directly, especially the underlings. Makes me wonder how they find their way to serving him. Do Fades serve as intermediaries, the way a lesser demon might serve to tempt in the name of the Devil in christian cannon? Interesting.
@SeekingZero: (#28) Hello and I am glad you are enjoying it!
@padan-fain: (#47) I hope I finish to! It is a daunting, but exciting prospect. And I don’t think there is any point in doing this read without really getting into the nitty-gritty; the books are just too rich and detailed for anything less! I’m glad you’re enjoying the read and I look forward to many more as well. :-)
Regarding the survey, when I finished the ASOIAF audiobooks, audible recommended WOT to me. Little did I know, AMOL had just been released months before, so I never had to wait for a book. I plowed through the audiobooks and stumbled across the reread on this site. I then reread the books. I’ve since caught up on all of Sanderson’s other works since.
I do think if you can plow through the books and treat them as one big story (and didn’t suffer through 20 years of waiting on the books), then some of the “lesser” books are fine. They just represent the middle of the story .
@56 Some of the books definitely suffer from having a long wait for the next book.
Winter’s Heart was the first book I had to wait for. I’ve read the series through two or three times. Last time was probably for the run up to AMOL though I didn’t start at the beginning.
I don’t remember where the re-read was when I found it but it was pretty early.
Regarding the survey, I’m a very new reader. I started EotW at the end of March last year, and have gotten through TFoH so far. (I like taking my time with books.) However, I do have an eclectic variety of spoilers from having read a bunch of Sanderson interviews, many of them about WoT, on Theoryland before I started reading the series, so that’s made the experience a lot more interesting.
Survey answer, I picked up TEotW at Ft. Sill, fall of 1990 while in AIT. The book was daring me to buy it for a week. If I had known it was the first book, of an entire fantasy bookshelf, I would have left it. But, buy it I did. Re reading the whole damn series every release. Buying beater copies of TEotW to loan out, like a literary drug dealer, getting friends and co-workers hooked on my fix.
Survey Answer: I began some time in the mid 90s when my son (in HS then) recommended them. I actually stopped after about five books, then picked it up again a few years later (about 2006, I think). I caught up, then listened to the audiobooks at least twice, using them as alternative to radio during my 28-mile-each-way commute each day. I read the Sanderson books as they appeared – but have not reread aMoL since I was somewhat disappointed by the conclusion (it’s not Sanderson’s writing; I actually thought his first two volumes in concluding the series were terrific).
I am someone who does not mind “spoilers.” I always think that, for any story complex enough to be interesting, the second read is much more entertaining than the first. The third is almost as good as the second, but not quite, and then there are lesser returns after that. But I certainly respect the wishes of those who want to preserve their surprise at discovery.
Just wanted to say, I’ve just caught up with this read and I really enjoy your posts. For me, too, its great timing – I’ve plunged into my latest full re-reading of the series, and it still gets me every time.
@22 Survey
I started in 1991 when I picked up TEotW in paperback (I liked the cover and was looking for a long book, as I recall) when I was 17 years old. I specifically remember reading TDR on the way to college the next August in hard cover. I have probably read the first 4 books at least a dozen times and the subsequent books fewer times, up through aMoL which I have only read once. I did do a full read through in the 6 months leading up to AMoL. I am hoping my kids will pick up the series and I’ll read them again with them. I met RJ at a book signing in NYC in 1996 for LoC and got a RAFO. He an Harriet were both very nice and RJ was definitely larger than life.
I started when book 7 was out but only as a hardcover.
Regarding Ba’alzamon (almost referred to him by a spoilery name there) “what protects [him] also makes [him] vulnerable.”
I always just took this as a taint reference. Nothing more.
@22 Survey
I first picked up the series in the spring of 2001, I was 14 and the spine on ‘Dragon Reborn’ really caught my eye. I then saw the line of fat paperbacks on the shelf and started with ‘The Eye of the World’ and kept reading through the summer. I remember the date because that summer I went on a long kayaking trip and had to fight to bring both TDR and TSR in my pack. I knew I would finish #3 and did not want to wait haha.
I’ve re-read the first four books at least five times, which puts me on my sixth reading now. I’ve only read the last three books once. My last full re-read was probably in college, when KoD came out. I tried doing another full re-read for the Sanderson books but ran out of time!
@John (#63) Ah yes the taint. I keep forgetting about that! Seems a big thing not to remember.
@Sylas (#65) Yep. It’s big.And so is almost everything else you run across at this point in the series. Eventually.
As for the survey, I think I’ve said before that my middle-school-aged grandson got me started on the series some time around 2003-2005, but I read only the TEotW then. Then I picked up the first four books in used paperbacks to take on a six week trip my wife and I made to the British Isles in 2006. Since then, I have taken only short breaks. I’ve read the series, I’ve listened to the series, I’ve talked about the series (with Michael and his friend who introduced him to the books), and somehow, even at my advanced age (Michael is now 29), I still keep going back to these books. But I did finally let go of my hardback collection of the whole 14+ books; I gave them to Michael. After all, I have the Kindle editions and the audio books to fall back on. :-)
And, of course, after spending a pre-retirement career “caring for” late teens/early 20s people, I haven’t given up on this one yet. Fond memories.
@22 Survey
I started reading the books in March of 2018. I read all 14 books in about 45 days (say 3 days per book on average). Perhaps I was a little obsessed. I’m in the Thom Merrilin age bracket and have been a long time fantasy/sci-fi fan. Somehow never got around to reading WOT before but am so happy to have found it.
@sylas, love the read through. TEotW is still pretty fresh in my mind, but I definitely missed much of what you’re already discovering. As many have said, it’s quite impressive how much of the world is setup by RJ in this first story.
I can say almost nothing about Sylas’s post without breaking out the whiteout so I’m going to leave that alone except to echo what some have already said: dreams play a big part in the story.
Survey says! It was probably 1994 when I first picked up the WoT and was quickly hooked. Over the years I would go back and forth between intense excitement waiting for the next book and just putting it down in disgust because of the long wait between books. Then I’d finally see a new one (or be shocked to see two) and back in I’d go! Inevitably I’d have to start over just to bring myself back up to speed with the plot(s) before I’d start the new. Then I discovered that Jordan had died and figured that was it, I’d never know.
I think Sanderson did a brilliant job in finishing it for Jordan’s wife and all the fans. I seem to recall reading an interview where Sanderson said that between the extensive outlines, notes and the knowledge that Jordan’s wife had his job seemed easy with regards to plot, he just had to live up to Jordan’s tone. The humor was noticably different, but not in a bad way. In the last stages of Jordan’s life he knew his time was growing short and he spent a a lot of time making sure he left behind enough to finish the saga.
Thanks for the survey answers.
I’m not keeping any track of the answers.
There are fewer comments on this weeks post and I think that’s because it’s full of spoilery matter and you can’t really discuss anything in depth without accidentally spoiling something significant.
@Sylas (#53) Well, there is sarcasm and there is S-A-R-C-S-A-S-M!!!! ;-) There is no easy non-spoiler way to go about it… I can’t wait until you have to do a biweekly column on dreams in the Wheel of Time…. I’m wondering if other people have a survey answer for, “At what point in the Wheel of Time Series, did you really feel like you just took the red pill (Matrix, 1999)?” If it has a spoiler, use white text…If you haven’t seen the Matrix, you have a homework assignment…
Regarding 22. Tomas’s query, I found tEotW in a used book shop in about 1995, one of thousands of paper backs. I had no idea about the success, size – anything – of the series The cover writing – and maybe even the dreadful but evocative cover picture – convinced me to buy it.
I was hooked in about ten pages, and started tracking down the succeeding books. I had just got the internet, and soon found RASFWRJ, and the FAQ (and Leigh Butler, a genuine delight now for a decade and more). I have reread these books uncounted times, at least Books 1-7. Books 8,9, and 10 not so much. #11, KoD, lit the fire again, and I’ve read Brandon’s epics a couple of times (well done, except Mat. Oh well.) I once read the books in reverse order, from aCos to tEotW???
I wonder if I’m crazy, spending so much time on this, not reading much of anything else. But I’m once again rereading, about midway in tGH. I marvel at how well some of these scenes are written. I relish the wonderful high points: Rand falling into the palace grounds, to meet Elayne and all that follows; Rand and Lan entering the Women’s Quarter using Cat Crosses the Courtyard; Lan and Nynaeve, several places; Perrin, Egwene and troop fleeing/dodging the crows; just now, Perrin and Mat and Verin meeting Urien in the mountain pass; and so many more past and to come – dozens and dozens of Moments of Awesomeness. I suppose I’ll keep reading, and checking back here for another interesting (re)read.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out spoilers.
Sylas, I love the name change; congrats! I look forward to these posts every week, and this may be my favorite one so far since I love dreams in the WoT. /I really love most of the TAR scenes, probably because they tend to involve Egwene and Perrin, 2 of my top 3 favorite characters. Actually, Nynaeve is instrumental in capturing Moghedian in TAR, so that is all 3 of my top 3./
For the reader survey – I for some reason thought the Wheel of Time books were children’s books for the longest time (perhaps confusing it with A Wrinkle in Time?), so I didn’t read them in my teens or as they were coming out. In the summer of 2016, I was home on maternity leave with my son. He would cry if I wasn’t holding him at all times (and would scream like a banshee in the car or stroller), so I was almost never leaving the house. As a way to get out without getting out, I started reading fantasy novels. My husband’s coworker recommended the Wheel of Time books, and I read through the entire series by the following spring. This is my first re-read, and I am really enjoying noticing so much more of RJ’s foreshadowing and worldbuilding details.
Wow, even the Dragon being one with the land is already being set up :)
I started reading the books in fall of 1999 when my German teacher lent the first book to me (I was a junior in high school. She is also the one who lent me my first Guy Gavriel Kay and Sharon Shinn books…). She lent me all the books through Path of Daggers (which was the last one out at the time). Winter’s Heart came out when I was a senior. I’ve done at least one full re-read (before TGS came out), but I used to re-read the Wot Encyclopaedia summaries in prep for each book, and I actually found Tor through Leigh’s initial re-read. I used to follow the FAQ (although at some point it stopped being updated) and eventually I came across a link to the re-read (maybe on Dragonmount?). For awhile, Path of Daggers was my least favorite (they say generally the book you finish and then have to wait is often that one – either that, or the first one you had to wait for) but when I did a re-read I found it didn’t bother me nearly as much, since you can get right on to the next bit of the story. It does have some of the more controversial plot lines though… :) I enjoyed Winter’s Heart, and while Crossroads of Twilight definitely does have some controversial PoV choices, I actually enjoyed the fact we were getting an in depth look at what else was happening (and again, it’s not so onerous on a reread). I think RJ had started to pick up the pace again with Knife of Dreams but sadly passed away before he could finish.
@42 – haha! Starwars.com might have been my first internet visit too, lol. Also somewhere around 1999…I was maybe still a little to young/unsavvy to find the usergroups though (we just had AOL, ha).
I have very much enjoyed reading all your survey answers! Thanks for starting that Thomas!
@71, RE: *THAT* cover art. What *IS* up with that anyway? Everytime I see it I find myself staring at it and trying to identify all the ways it just gives off bad juju aura? It’s like one of those memes on tumblr or twitter that causes you to have an initial reaction fo “mmmbadpost.”
Concerning books 8-10 (especially 10)
I think the fans who waited for the books had a harder time with books 8-10 than the new readers. We of the old guard had to wait 2-3 years for each installment and especially book 10 didn’t progress the plot as much as we wanted. I noticed in my later re-reads that YES the books slow down a bit but it wasn’t as bad as the first time when we had to wait so long for the continuation of the story. The books really pick up the pace in book 11 (RJs last) and I think Jordan would have done an amazing job if he had lived to see it through.
The reason for the 2-3 years span between later books was because of RJs health. His doctor had ordered him to ease up on his writing pace (which was quite high in the earlier books).
@75, @71 et al. – Leigh Butler’s original Re-Read (2009-2014) contains several posts that go into some detail analyzing, critiquing, and discussing the cover art for the various books in the series. I am not sufficiently familiar with the myriad posts to give specific references to the locations, but perhaps some of the WOT authorities might help. The toc for Leigh’s massive work is here: https://www.tor.com/features/series/wot-reread/. If my memory is correct, the cover art analysis usually came near the final posts for some of the later books. Sorry I’m too lazy to track them down, but I remember Leigh’s critique and some of the commenters to have been fascinating,
@77 I can’t remember if it was the first or last post on a book that went over the covers.
The cover of the Eye of the World may not be the most accurate representation of what’s inside the book, but I don’t get all the dislike. In its day, it was massively compelling, it had much to do with the successful launch of the series. Whelan may be unequivocally a better artist than Sweet, but some of the best-selling fantasy books of all time have Sweet’s signature style, including this one. Those books didn’t sell in spite of Sweet’s work. Tastes were just different in the 80s/90s.
@Sylas I’ve been following this read for a couple of months now and wanted to say thank you for doing this, it’s been something to look forward to each week. Like many others I find it interesting what you pick up on (and don’t pick up on), and following along has helped provide some context to my own re-read (currently in tSR). I look forward to learning more from the your impressions and analysis.
I think most posters have already touched on a number of recurrent themes, which you’ve picked up remarkably quickly! I would challenge you though to watch for the presence of Imposter Syndrome throughout your read, and not just in the ‘Perrin would know how to talk to women’ sense.
@Survey: I picked up tEotW back in 1997 at the suggestion of a friend. Crown of Swords was the most recent release at the time, and I’ve read the first seven books at least a dozen times each. But I think I’ve only read the Sanderson books a single time each, and am currently in my first full-series, cover-to-cover read. I’ve been amazed at how my ability to empathize with different characters has changed as my life experiences have changed as well. (I have so much more patience for Nynaeve at this point in my life, for instance)
Aha! I’ve finally caught up to the read! That’s great in that I can join the commenting fun, and also sad because I have to wait with everyone else for the next post.
In the meantime, I’ll answer the survey too: I first picked up TEOTW in about, I want to say 96 or 97? I was a freshman in high school. I’m one of the lone few fantasy fanatics who simply could not get into it. I read about half? After Shadar Logoth but before Caemlyn, I think, and then put it down for a decade and a half. I picked it up again in 2015 when my husband nagged me about it and bought me the ALL the ebooks at considerable expense. I got halfway through the Fires of Heaven, then I got busy and lost the thread.
So that’s as much as I’ve read! I picked the series back up with the audiobooks and am going through the early books again to refresh myself (I’m currently 3/4 of the way through The Great Hunt) so… I’m excited to be a newbie with you, Sylas. I caught less than half of what you’ve picked up on so far, much of it becomes clear as you keep reading, and I’m sure I’m missing at least as much that hasn’t been revealed yet.
I’m really enjoying this read through, but I fear that I’m going to get sucked in like a black hole. I’m worried that I’m going to get too interested and start feeling that tick. You guys know the one. It’s that itch that doesn’t go away till you just crack the spine on TEotW. Maybe just glance over the summary. *5 months later* Damnit! It happened again! Sylas, I hope you come back and read the comments after you finish the series. It would make a good wrap up post, where you comment on some of the most relevant post or how you go things right or wrong.
@59 Jason Buck, I laughed out loud, because I’m totally a literary drug dealer. I’m always trying to get people to read my favorite series. “Hey kid, you wanna try some ‘Eye of the World’? It’s good stuff man. All the cool kids are reading it. No, it’s not gonna cost, ya. First chapters free. Oh yeah, you feel the crack of that spine. That’s how you know it’s good!” Hahahaha!
As for the survey, I started reading in 2000, when I was 13yrs old. The only reason I remember is because I whipped through the books and remember being stoked that ‘Winter’s Heart’ was coming out in only two months. I did a re-read between each new release and I believe I’ve done one in between two of the longer spaced releases. I haven’t read them since AMoL. I also remember being devestated when Jordan passed and pissed when Sanderson split them into three books. I understood, but I was still pissed.
The biggest benefit was I discovered Brandon Sanderson. I decided I’d read this guys books to see if he was good enough to be allowed to touch WoT. I quickly decided he was and tore through most of his work. I’ve still got some of it to read, though. I’m currently doing a re-read for every release of his ‘Stormlight Archives’, but I don’t know if I can keep up the pace. He release pace is my favorite and least favorite thing about him. I love that he treats it like a job and releases high quality works frequently, but it’ll start taking up all my reading time if I re-read every book before he releases the next in the series. The burdens we have to bear.
You guys are sharp, though. I don’t tend to pick up on this kind of thing readily. Don’t get me wrong, I can analyze what I read, but that’s not how I enjoy reading. I let myself completely go when I’m reading. I zone out and let my brain create a movie in my head of what I’m reading. It’s like I’m brain dead in front of the tv. So a lot of that analysis doesn’t trigger in my head. It makes sense when you guys discuss it and I see it, but I don’t really catch it on my read through. It works for me and it means stuffs a surprise when I do make the connectiong. Something I don’t think is a spoiler and I’ll let you guys post it for Sylas if you agree, that I didn’t catch till I read an article a couple of years ago was, //all the references to modern day stuff through their lore. They said Glenn of the Eagles is John Glen, and I think there was an Amelia Earhart reference among others.// It seriously never occured to me till that article said something about it. I just accepted it as world building. I notice some authors will do that to make a world feel real. They’ll have characters mention some lore or history and not fully explain it. That way it makes the world feel real. Kinda like an inside joke.
I first found the WoT at a library book sale. I’d keep my Friend of the Library membership fresh so I could get in a day early and get first picks over books. I don’t know how many of you guys have ever been to one of these, but they can get viscious sometimes. I remember taking my brother. I was 16 or 17 since I was driving, but I almost had to beat a woman down at a book sale when she shoved my then 11 or 12 year old brother so she could get to some books he was looking at. I made her apoligize, but it was ridiculous. I was poking through books and “Dragon Reborn” caught my attention as any book with the word dragon or the picture of one will. I poked around and found a book called “Eye of the World” and one called “The Great Hunt”. I don’t know if you guys have heard of these., :) but I picked them up. They sat in my room for a month or so till I finished what I’d been reading and then I remember rolling my eyes, because I’d have to read two books before I could get to the one with the word Dragon on the cover. I’d still like to have seen more dragons in the series than we did, but that’s me. I was hooked from book one, though. I powered through them and was stoked to see that ‘Winter’s Heart’ was coming out in two months.
I wonder if any of you let your favorite series sit around before starting them. I saw a couple of posters that said they had to be cajoled into reading this series before they got hooked. Any others? I know my grandmother bought me the box set of the first four Harry Potter books and I let them sit in my room for 6 month before reading them. I’d heard a kid at school describe them and it sounded horrible. I kept putting them off and making excuses to my grandmother about why I hadn’t had a chance to read them yet. I didn’t want to hurt her feelings. She was a big reader too and she’d often let me trade her books in for store credit at the used book store. I got many books that way. It’s one of those things where a grandparent does something you don’t really want, but you know they think it’s a big deal and don’t want to seem ungrateful. Well, after 6 months, I finished everything I wanted to read and couldn’t think of anything else, so I sighed and picked up the first book. I think I read till 2am that day. I quickly polished off the other books and became a life long fan. I made sure to gush over them to my grandmother and thank her. I also made sure to let her know every time I went to a midnight release, which I did for each following book. I went to school, looked at the kid whos description made me postpone reading them and called him a POS. He asked me why I called him that. I said, “You know why!” and walked away. I didn’t like him anyway, so I didn’t feel bad about it.
I guess I’m a masochist and I reckon a lot of us here are. We’ve read, re-read, read re-read posts as well as redux’s of re-read posts, and now we’re reading posts about reading this series. Sylas, I’m sad and happy to say, that if you finish this series you’ll be a sadomasichist like the rest of us. Especially if you get through the middle of the series. I’m a huge fan of the series and I didn’t have too much of a problem with them, but there are two hole books, with those long wait times (not for you buddy) between them, and there is almost zero action. I mean, like nothing. It’s all mental and emotional action, with the characters barely moving. I thought about commenting that out, but I don’t think it’s a secret that it can slog sometimes. I know many people that say the quite around here.
I don’t just stop there, though. I like to re-read when I start to forget enough. I know many of you have the same problem I do. You’re reading a long series and you see an article or a commercial and it mentions Harry Potter, or WoT, or Xanth, or Pern, or whatever, and you start thinking about the series. About how you remember enjoying reading it. How much fun you have. How you’d like to read it sometime. How you’d really like to read it. “Oh god! I really want to read it and I’m 20 books in to a 40 book series. I’ve got to wait till I finish this one, but I really wanna read that one.” By the time I’m done with series A, I look like a heroine addict, jonsing hard for series B. I end up devouring it and about half way through, I’m like “Hey remember when I read RA Salvatore’s ‘Drizzt’ books, nononononoNO!” I’m doing it now. I just re-read all 41 books in Piers Anthony’s ‘Xanth’ series and I’m currently on book 24 of 47 of the ‘Drizzt’ books. I got way behind and and I don’t think I’ve read anything past the ‘War of the Spider Queen’ books, so I have a lot to catch up on. To throw the cherry on top, I’d re-read the whole Terry Goodkind ‘Shannara’ series before ‘Xanth’. I can’t do that again. It’s not as engauging as some of the other series. I’ll just wait till all of the last three are out and read them through. I almost have to do a re-read, though. If I do a re-read on WoT, then I can be on book 14 and remember all the references, but if I don’t, they’ll say something super basic and I’ll have no idea what they’re talking about. I’d spend more time looking up the reference and being pulled out of the story than I would just re-reading the books.
When I do get on a kick reading new stuff, I love it. I try to branch out and read something outside my niche once a year and I’m usually please. I’ve read most of the Jack Reacher novels, though I have to take breaks in between as they’re all basically the same novel, and I fell in love with the ‘Borrowed World’ series. It’s my first prepper series. I love the realism, the common sense, and the fact that some of it takes place somewhere I’ve actually been. I encourage you guys to check it out if that sounds at all interested. It’s pretty realistic. It’s not one of those book where a super virus is loosed by terrorists. It shows how because of our current infrastructure, terrorists can do a couple of simple things and brake america’s back. It also shows what happens when your normally peaceful friends and neighbors get desperate. Ever thought about what would happen to prisoners if our infrastructure were to break down? This book series shows you and it’s not good.
So I’m really enjoying this read through and I hope you don’t lead me down the rabbit hole, cause in the words of Sweet Brown, “Ain’t nobody got time for that.”
@Sylas: Wow, Sylas K Barrett: What great name! Congrats on the change, and really curious to know how you came to pick it. A name like Sylas must have a story behind it (if you deem us worthy of sharing that is).
Re: your comment in #65. Big would be an understatement!
Survey answer:
My friend was given a copy of tEotW, but struggled with it. He knew I liked SFF so dropped it in my lap. It hung around for a few months before I picked it up during the spring half term in ’97. I finished it in a week, but it was an early printing and I didn’t know there were any sequels till tPoD was released the next year (just in time for Christmas) and my local WHSmiths had a week long promotion on the series (in their snazzy black covers) that I just happened to walk by.
I was in secondary school at the time so I couldn’t afford to buy them all, but I did buy tGH then and there, and conspired to get tDR, tSR and tFoH for Christmas. I then stressed over trying to get copies of LoC, aCoS and tPoD from the Library till my birthday came around.
I’ve read the whole series through twice since aMoL came out, but I’ve read the first 8 soo many times! I think tEotW is probably still my favourite and I’ve read it far more than any of the others, barring possibly tGH and tDR, which I’ve read almost as many times.
@49: IF Jordan had finished writing the series, I would have taken 5 books to wrap up.
Saying anything besides that goes into spolier land. Jordan was way too optimistic to think it could all happen in one book.
Nothing really to add to this particular discussion, but as for the survey:
I started the series in about 94 or 95. LOC was the first book I got in hardcover. I reread all the books every time a new one came out, and sometimes in between as well. (On the in-between read-throughs I tend to just follow one character’s POV chapters and skip the rest.) I literally read the cover off of TEotW. My second copy isn’t in great shape either.
Survey answer: I can tell you exactly where I was when I first read tEotW, because I was in the car on the way back from my mother’s funeral in 2008. (My husband had picked up the book at the Barnes and Noble in my hometown because of his fond memories of his first encounter with the series in the late 1990s.) I didn’t want to think about the funeral, so I started reading the book.
@84:
Hey, you got me on FB, you can always tell me exactly why I’m wrong there ;P
I first encountered the series when my mother brought the first book home from the library. IIRC it was early high school years and she’d had it recommended by somebody (I can’t remember who). I quickly read all the books that the library had, and then picked up the entire series (through I think Lord of Chaos, which at the time was the newest book assuming I’m remembering correctly) in paperback. After those fell apart, I decided to collect it in hardcover and picked up each new book as it came out. Until around Knife of Dreams I reread the entire series as each book released, but after that point I only read each new book as it released, with one or two more series reads after the last book came out. All told I think I’ve read the first half of the series maybe 8 to 10 times, and the back half between 2 and 4 times, depending on the specific book.
I did get my dad hooked after A Memory of Light released. He’s read the whole series probably four or so times now.
Re: Survey. I must have started reading WoT around 1993 or 1994, as I think four or five books were available at my library. I was young enough (ten?) that the librarian who checked me out warned me that this was a complex series with lots of characters (they hadn’t yet learned to stop underestimating me!). Plus I was starting with the second book, for some reason. I did that with Sword of Truth, too. No idea why; I guess it just looked so compelling that I didn’t want to wait for the first book to be returned to the library.
I dutifully took notes on characters for about two pages and then was immediately hooked, despite the dissonance of really not knowing what was going on. I finished TGH and immediately read the rest of what was available at the time. I didn’t reread much while I was waiting for new releases. Two things came of that. One, by the time I did reread the first few books, I had almost entirely forgotten much of TEotW, especially the Lews Therin prologue, because I’d started with such a screwy reading order, so it was a surprise and a delight to read it later and connect it to other scenes. Two, I got really bogged down in the books 8-10 slog. Those were coming out around my high school years, so it wasn’t until college that I finally caught up. Then after I graduated and got a job, I did a proper reread, mostly with audiobooks, during my commute, in preparation for AMoL.
I have not yet reread AMoL. There was just such a sense of closure and finality at the end, knowing that there would be no more, that I didn’t want to touch it for a while. But I’m planning on (re)reading along with our host here, and if the read gets to AMoL, I will reread that too.
I too was pleased to be introduced to Brandon Sanderson through WoT first. I have since been following his prodigious output with interest. So I guess I’m one of the old timers that was so relieved that there would be an ending. (Even if it’s not the ending. Because the Wheel has no endings.)
@21 – “In connection to the pecking out of eyes, could it be relevant that Min saw an eye on a scale next to Mat?” – Now that was subtle of you wasn’t it?
@42 – “the second thing I did was hunt down Wheel of Time related sites on Altavista. The first thing I did was go to StarWars.com” – nice meeting a SW fan from time to time. If you see this, do you think you can explain me what made you stay a fan all those years? As I lost interest (after reading nearly 100 novels) with time (novles gave me less then I wanted from the characters/development) but the new trilogy just delivered the last nails to this coffin
@60 – “but have not reread aMoL since I was somewhat disappointed by the conclusion” that’s intersting. How come?
@71 – “and I’ve read Brandon’s epics a couple of times (well done, except Mat. Oh well.) ” How come?
@73 – “Wow, even the Dragon being one with the land is already being set up :)” – Remind me in white out what that’s all about? “@42 – haha! Starwars.com might have been my first internet visit too, lol” Being a SW fan as well, maybe you can tell me if I made a terrible mistake abandoning SW
There’s a scene close to the end where //Rand makes the apple trees bloom/// and it’s actually one of my favorite Rand moments, even if it’s a more subtle one. And in fact, I just looked up the scene again and it’s //Almen’s point of view// which I completely forgot and just makes it all the cooler.
The nice thing about Star Wars is that there’s a lot of it. I’ll put myself out there as a bit of a minority – I enjoyed the prequels (and find myself being almost obstinate in my continued enjoyment of them in the face of seeing so many articles that talk about how ‘everybody’ hated them) and have been more or less disappointed with the sequels for various reasons. I will even admit that they are better movies than the prequels, but I don’t think they are better *Star Wars* movies than the prequels. In a nutshell, I didn’t enjoy the *extent* of the Happy Ending Override (I know there has to be at least SOME to continue the story), I didn’t like the way the main trio was broken up and that we never got to see them in action together which seems to be a squandered opportunity, and I wasn’t thrilled with how Luke was handled (I actually did enjoy Last Jedi though, in the end) and was honestly hoping they’d explore more stuff related to the Force, balance, how Luke discovered new ways of practicing it, how he learned from the old Jedi Order’s mistakes, etc. So in some ways it was a victim of my own expectations.
But I loved Rogue One and really liked Solo (more than I thought I would). I’ve mostly enjoyed Clone Wars and am really excited for the new season, and I loved Rebels. I’ll definitely be checking out Resistance.
I still read the old Legends EU, although like you, I burned out a bit on it – I’m not a huge fan of any of the stuff which started with New Jedi Order and beyond. My least favorite thing the EU ever did was give Han and Leia a dark side son. I was excited that the EU got wiped out simply for that, but that joke was on me, of course. I do intend to check out some of the new books/canon, I just haven’t had time yet.
All that said, there’s stuff I’ve really enjoyed in the sequels. I really like Rey, Kylo is a compelling and interesting villain, Poe and Finn are both charming (although Poe has slipped down a few notches in my eyes since TLJ but I think he can redeem himself), and I even think Rose has potential. So I don’t think Star Wars is worth stepping away from. I have my own way I think things should have happened, so sometimes when I watch the movies I just think, ‘this is one person’s opinion’. And there’s other stuff besides the episode movies – TV shows, standalone movies, books/comics, etc.
thanks.
I didn’ see Solo or Rogue one. I can say I liked clone wars and I saw a couple of rebels seasons.
It’s just that… after so many ways Luke and co. were interpreted (in the novels), after having so many opportunities to shape them more, characterise them more, give them more depth over time, go deeper in the rabbit hole with the force and the balance. Show me the unique insights of a master. But they never really delivered. I can understand that an author writing a book that none of this stuff is his creation, that he is not given the rights to do this to the characters, is very very limited, but the force itself could be investigated, but it was so shallow. even with the chapters focusing only on the force lasr season was meh (with Anakin and them oracles was it?… yeah the episode with Maul and bro vs. Emperor was a good fight, but show me the reasoning of Palpatine, give me an insight in this mastermind).
So if all there was left was the trio + Lando and the droids, ahh and Winter, (who can forget Mara and Carde) and well yeah many more, but if all there was left was just my attachament to those characters for staying an SW fan, than naturally what they did with the sequels was to cut my connection with the last thing I still loved and cared for in SW.
I am loving that this read through is a thing! To answer the survey, I started reading in 2004 and was 12 years old at the time. So I think I can be excused perhaps for not being as astute in figuring things out as you! Seriously impressed by how good you are at predicting things!
Man, I did NOT intend to begin yet another re-read of WoT when I noticed this thread!
But … I have succumbed. Re-read number 5, dangnabbit, and all because Tor.com is such an awesome site and i just had to click to see what was up with yet another WoT re-read. (I thoroughly enjoyed Leigh Butler’s.)
So I just started my re-read and though it is a VERY inconvenient time to have done so, I’m sure I’ll catch up with you all soon.